It always seems to amaze me, every time an Armenian in a debate is faced with cold hard facts, they change the subject or simply dismiss the facts as automatic-lies even when sources are provided (which then they say the sources are a lie). To these propagandists who spread campaigns of hate, convincing them is like trying to convince a wall to dance.
There isn't a hundred scholars and historians who claim a genocide against Armenians occurred. See now you're talking about this without even naming anyone.
And don't try going online and finding a list of names from the internet. They have to be Ottoman historians or people of Ottoman expertise.
I can name 7 but I know you can't name one that isn't of Armenian descent or funded by the ANCA.
Nothing in this website takes quotes out of context. I read the context to make sure that they work. Otherwise so many historians and researchers wouldn't take our website seriously.
And you continue with your ad hominem attacks against me, other researchers, and this website.
"Your second to last reply to my comment tried to say that claiming a Genocide in Turkey was not a crime, however it is because it does fall under the insulting Turkishness law."
-- No it is not a crime. Fatma does it all the time. Taner Akcam constantly writes about it in newspapers and has never been to jail for it. So has many others who believe in the Armenian Genocide. So you're absolutely wrong, now instead of arguing with me, please educate yourself on the material you speak of, you are really embarrassing yourself.
"Would anyone question a holocaust survivors story? Why then do Turks call Armenian survivors recounts questionable?" -- There is a difference, the Holocaust is proven, the Armenian Genocide is not, therefore there is lots of motivation for Armenian massacre survivors to promote a genocide even if it isn't true. Such as the ARF pressuring witnesses to condemn the Turks when maybe it wasn't the Turks doing the actions. Another example is nationalism in order to promote a genocide that will provide sympathy for the Armenian people to increase US Aid to Armenia (many tax payers in America send their tax money to a nation that frequently meets with Iran and makes enemies with NATO nations).
These are good motivations that can create lots of false witnesses.
Wow, you named around seven people, but what are there credentials? What are there biases? Who funds their research? None of that is stated either for those for or against the argument that the genocide happened. The fact that things are worded the way they are implies a majority of experts hold these things to be true. Even so just because 7 people believe one thing it doesn't make it so. How about the hundereds of scholars and historians that claim the genocide occured. By the way almost half of the "scholars" you mention are Turkish and probably have a bias.
In addition most of the quotations from Morgenthau and others on this website are taken out of context. so your claim about "Taking quotes from this website by claiming that those quotes prove that this website is misleading people is like someone taking fragments of video of your whole life and picking out words that may sound hateful to another group if properly edited." is pretty invalid. You seem to take parts of Turkish documents that fit your needs and are convenient to your argument and omit the parts that are not. Get real and take a few lessons on debating and objectivity before you create misleading websites like this one.
And by the way, the examples that I used were just a few of many on this website. Would anyone question a holocaust survivors story? Why then do Turks call Armenian survivors recounts questionable? It seems as though Turkish nationalism and pride are once again holding it back as we have seen many times before. The sheer fact that insulting "Turkishness" is a crime punishable by jail time, which surprisingly claiming a genocide against the armenians falls under shows how backwards not only the government is but how ashamed they must be of their past.
Your second to last reply to my comment tried to say that claiming a Genocide in Turkey was not a crime, however it is because it does fall under the insulting Turkishness law.
You're accusing this website of misleading people? Those are really harsh words for researchers who are doing this to inform the public.
Some people work very hard to deliver you the latest research.
Taking quotes from this website by claiming that those quotes prove that this website is misleading people is like someone taking fragments of video of your whole life and picking out words that may sound hateful to another group if properly edited.
As for your accusation itself:
"Most Scholars" --> Western historians like Ezel Kural Shaw, Stanford Shaw, Justin McCarthy, and Guenter Lewy. As well as other scholars like Salahi Sonyel, Mim Kemal Oke, Kamuran Gurun, and many others acknowledge that these laws were published, and they are available for anyone to see in the Ottoman archives. If you had done your research instead of questioning the validity of this website, then you wouldn't even ask this awkward question.
"Some authors" --> Armenian scholars, Vahakn Dadrian, Richard Hovannisian, and Western scholars like Justin McCarthy and Guenter Lewy all acknowledge the existence of these published decree but they also acknowledge that they weren't always carried out.
On the other hand, Vahakn Dadrian and Richard Hovannisian both Armenian scholars, do disagree in that they believe the relocations were a cloak for a mass extermination campaign. Though they have yet to uncover any evidence to support that assertion.
Does that satisfy you? I mean you simply could have looked up each scholar and validated the statement of "Some authors" and "most scholars" because it was obviously researched and not just thrown out there for some commenter to come along and debunk it.
Mr. Wilson, you obviously need to read the section titled Provisional laws. Once you read it you will see the vague and uncited references to scholars and authors.
"Most scholars acknowledge that the Ottoman government did publish decrees and regulations to protect the "lives and properties of Armenians to be transferred." No one denies the 15 regulations (for the well being of Armenians) published following the Tehcir Law on May 30, 1915. Article 4 of the regulations states that "attention will be paid to establishing the villages in places which suit public health conditions, agriculture and construction." Other articles focus on the careful attention that governors must follow to ensure the survival of all Armenians, such as ensuring resettlement villages are no more than 25 kilometers from railroads, board and lodging that need to be provided to Armenians, allocation of land and providing tools and equipment for Armenian farmers who are relocated. [1]
Some authors note that the regulations were published but that they were usually not carried out. Regardless the intention of the central government is clear in that it cared for the safety of the Armenians as numerous ciphered telegrams not meant for the public were also later revealed to show concern for the Armenians being relocated.
Instead, Armenian Genocide proponents argue that following these regulations and public decrees for the safety of Armenians there were second sets of more secret orders that compelled local authorities to exterminate Armenians. However, to this day no proof of such orders have been found. Hence, Armenian Genocide proponents argue that the orders may have been destroyed once authorities received them or that the archives of the Ottomans may have been cleaned of such evidence.
Although there may be a fragment of a chance that such "second set" of orders were distributed there is no evidence to support it and accusations and conspiracy theories alone should not be the basis for a conclusion that the government planned an Armenian Genocide."
Who are "Most Scholars" and "Some authors"? This is just one example of how this website tries to mislead people.
First and foremost, there needs to be reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey. This website is doing nothing to promote improved relations between the two nations. The Turkish people of today have and had nothing to do with the tragic events of 1915-1918 and I have nothing against them. What I do have a problem with is the denial of the genocide. The articles and essays on this website are written in such a way that they use extremely general, vague, and often uncited references. Any sentence that starts with "Many reputable historians", then fails to mention who they are is trying to mislead people. These tactics are similar to those used by FOXNews. Make it sound like a majority of people or some reputable people say or believe one thing and the average joe will take it at face value. Secondly, the arguments used especially regarding secret documents and laws passed for the well being of the deported Armenians hold no value. Has a guilty man ever been set free due to lack of evidence or destroyed evidence? It doesn't take a genius to know that the answer to that question is yes. Lastly, if there was no genocide commited, then why is it a crime to speak of it in Turkey today? Why would the Turkish government go through such an effort to supress the mention of what they say never happened?
Let's face it. The Turkish government of 1915-1918 saw a threat to it's territory in the eastern part of Anatolia. The fact that the Russians and Armenians were in alliance with each other only scared the crumbling Ottoman empire further, having lost all of its European territory already. The first step was to remove all weapons from the Armenian conscripts in the Ottoman army, who had served proudly under the Ottomans. Next they rounded up all the Armenians and sent them on a march into the desert. This planned relocation resulted in the death of over 1.5 million Armenians. Whether or not people were murdered along the way doesn't really matter to me because in my eyes the Turkish government sanctioned these events and allowed people to die regardless whether an order was given or not.
What's even more interesting and ironic is that the very campaign of denial and deceit that Turkey's government is and has been engaged in since 1918 is the driving force behind outside observers and nations calling the events genocide. It's not easy to deal with the tragic events of the Armenian genocide, especially when you have blood on your hands, but after over 90 years it is finally time to say sorry to the Armenian people.
1) This website's purpose is reconciliation of Turks and Armenians. The only way to do that is through debate and objective research without insults and labeling which you participated in, such as saying someone is in "denial".
2) Fox News viewers and millions of Americans would disagree.
3) The reputable historians are always mentioned throughout this website, you should search for them.
4) The documents and references are correct and they are verifiable and reliable.
5) "Has a guilty man ever been set free due to lack of evidence or destroyed evidence" -- How do you know the man is guilty without any evidence? Where did you study law?
6) "why is it a crime to speak of it in Turkey today" -- It's not a crime to speak of it in Turkey, that means you don't even know anything about Turkey or Armenia. You've got it all wrong, it is a crime to speak against the genocide in Armenia, but it is not a crime to speak for the genocide in Turkey as some people do.
7) "Why would the Turkish government go through such an effort to supress the mention" -- It doesn't go through such an effort. However, in comparison the Armenian Revolutionary Federation goes through a lot of effort, even assassinating people to make sure they agree with their decision that there was a genocide, I wonder why.
8) "The Turkish government of 1915-1918 saw a threat to it's territory in the eastern part of Anatolia." -- You're right, the threat was very real, and so their only choice was to relocate the Armenians since they couldn't catch the Dashnaks amongst a civilian population that actively protected them.
9) "having lost all of its European territory already. " -- Yes the Armenians were encouraged to rebel because of how weak the Ottoman Empire seemed.
10) "The first step was to remove all weapons from the Armenian conscripts in the Ottoman army" -- The weapons were removed only after thousands of Armenians deserted the army WITH their weapons to join the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (as ordered by the ARF).
11) "Next they rounded up all the Armenians and sent them on a march into the desert." -- Armenians were never sent to deserts. They were sent to the Fertile Crescent and Aleppo province.
12) "This planned relocation resulted in the death of over 1.5 million Armenians." -- There was about 1.5 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the time, so how could there be 8 million Armenians in the world today? 1.5 million Armenians did not die, and the plan wasn't to kill them, it was to relocate them as the secret documents suggest.
13) "in my eyes the Turkish government sanctioned these events" -- You would be right in saying that since the Turkish government relocated them, and since many people died along the way, this would be a form of genocide. However, you're wrong because most Armenians survived the trip to Aleppo and Deir-El-Zor and the Ottoman government spent a lot of money to make sure they lived so that the Europeans would not blame them for Armenian deaths. Also the fact that they were later allowed to return after the war was also proof that it wasn't genocide.
14) "campaign of denial and deceit that Turkey's government" - What about the Armenian organizations' and government's campaign of recognition and deceit? Why is it that you are saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is in denial? What kind of anti-freedom-of-speech is that? Why did Armenians have to forge evidence? Why do the Armenians keep their archives locked? Why do Armenians threaten and attack historians/scholars who disagree with your thesis? Why do Armenian organizations and lobbies pay millions of dollars to parliaments and scholars instead of taking Turkey to court? Are they afraid they might be proven wrong?
Yeah, I mean the UN can easily declare the karabakh region a genocide by the Armenian Armed Forces, simply because it was the governments decision to massacre and exterminate all Azerbaijanis from the Karabakh area, in other words it fits the definition of genocide and has a motive, while the Armenian genocide theory still has no motive, no evidence, and a couple forgeries. It's very hilarious how ironic the world is, where real genocides are forgotten and fake genocides are promoted just because the victims of the fake genocide might be Christian and the victims of the real genocide are Muslim.
I read An English author's article. It says that why Armenian Diaspora continues lobby activation on so-called genocide is to aim to make people and governments forget Karabakh occupation. It means they are trying to have Azerbaijan's terrirory by using their genocide arguments. It is important not to forget that %20 of Azerbaijan territories was occupied by Armenian force.
MuRatUlPeR
What I usually find, is that they get angry easily, but even the ones that don't get angry, simply respond negatively. If you argue with them, they will do one of the following:
1) Change the subject, by accusing the Ottoman Empire of other events.
2) Attacking the subject by calling him/her a "Denier" or a "payed employee by the government".
3) Concluding that all your evidence are "Lies" and that you are a "Liar".
4) Curses and derogatory terms.
5) Asking the question of "How can my grandmother/grandfather be wrong, he witnessed it?!", automatically assuming that somehow testimonies regardless of their truthness/exaggeration/falseness do not prove or disprove genocides, especially since both sides have thousands of witnesses of the events, and it only proves that there were mutual massacres, but no scope to predict whether its genocide or not.
The way to combat them, is to show people that these guys are the perpetrators of propaganda, and that we are not deniers, but simply researchers who establish that the events of 1887-1918 are of the Armenian Rebellion and should not be treated as the events of 1915-1923 as the "Armenian genocide", because it is completely a false portrayal of the events of those times.
To deny would be to deny the Armenians that died, because "Armenians died" is a fact. We are not denying that, we are denying the Armenian genocide theory, simply because this theory is not the right term to be applied to an Armenian rebellion which caused the deaths of many Ottomans and Armenians.
You cannot simplify such a large event into one word like the "Armenian genocide".
I have noticed that when my friends and i start to argue about the Armenian arguments, they can not answer many questions... For instance,after letting to write use,they do not let us stay there in many internet forums, i mean they do not want us to have freedom of speech. They only try to influence other people to make them believe in so-called genoside. They are pretending that they are a pitiful nation killed in history by Turks, just to look "pitiful" to people by which they can influnce them. I would also like to talk about the authors believed in genoside. Almost all of them are Armenian. But i have seen some books written by Armenian authors defended Ottoman Empire and brotherhood of the people, they refuse a genoside against Armenians and try to show who guilty are ( Russia, France and other imperialist states that gave supports to Armenians for rebellion ). There are many western historian refused the genoside arguments. I am not that i do not understand Armenians on supporting their genoside arguments. Because they all read these Armenian authors and historians. It is really pitty that we must say they are brainwashed but yes,they are. There is chances to research what happened in the Anatolia and the Caucasia in 1900s. They were used by imperialist states, they killed more than one million poeple. If Ottoman Empire wanted to kill every single Armenian, it could succeed to do that! But it did not but protected,covered all the people lived in the region. To be honest, it was the best option in that time. Ottoman prefered to take them to another place. Anyway..
Now, they must be fearing. Because if states have a common history committee and research what reality is, they are going to see what happened. Of course some Armenians died in the era but it was not a genoside. The genoside is what they did by believing Serv Agreement, they killed many poeple... This is their shame..
I just don't understand how they can trust all this nonsense. They have no proof they can present me with yet they still always have an answer.
I just thought I'd write here the thing thats constantly happening; I go into a discussion group, at first they are plainly expecting a "radical Turkish nationalist". But they're soon proved wrong as I start presenting them with all types of evidence and with a variety of questions which they can't answer. Soon there frustrated beyond words and either ban me or delete my comments.
Anyway, I'll get to the point. Yesterday I joined a group on facebook called:"Genocide Awareness". For some reason the admin is against me, like the rest of the group. Yet he's not even Armenian. All these people started shunning me from the beggining but I didn't want to start a fight. So I carried on talking about how the genocide is not logical in any way and that in fact Ottoman Muslims were massacred.
This guy has made a "neutral group" but on the other hand he's made the decision the whole world still can't decide on about the "Armenian Genocide". He shows the event together with Rwanda, Darfur and the Holocaust!
Well in spite of all the prejudices I start telling them about this guy who had banned me from his group(the same guy is an officer in this group) a few days before and he assures me nothing like that will happen. All of a sudden today he changes his mind and decides deniers of the genocide will be banned from the group.
I mean... what kind of neutral group is that supposed to be!? Well anyway I just thought I'd let everyone know so we can maybe find a way around these things with the experiences people have.