There was an anti System of a Down article in a music website today, it talked about the bands nationalistic tendencies. It seems most of it is rooted from Serj Tankian's racism towards Turks. Perhaps not every band member approves of the Anti-Turkish rhetoric that is riddled in System of A Down's music. However, it seems the bands strong emotions about what some Armenian scholars call the Armenian Genocide, may be why such hatred towards Turkey and the Turkish people are present.
The people need to know the true nature of this bands hidden nationalistic agenda and how well they create hate campaigns against the Turkish government including yelling out racist statements and protesting statements like "**** the Turkish government!" at their concerts.
Some people defend the band, saying that the band only attacks the Turkish government for denying the genocide and that they mean no ill-will to the Turkish people. However, the problem is, the Turkish government has always denied the Armenian Genocide, regardless of what party is in power, left or right. Since the beginning the Turkish government has denied the Armenian Genocide based on its research in the Ottoman archives.
System of a Down is Opening Old Wounds
System of a Down is attacking decades-old Turkish policy, not because it's a government policy, but because it's the Turkish peoples' policy. In fact, most polls today show that the Turkish people still deny the Armenian Genocide in a large majority. In a recent poll, 84% of the Turkish population believed that if the US recognized the Armenian Genocide, US-Turkish relations would deteriorate significantly. http://www.arifoundation.org/pdfs/Terror%20Free%20Tomorrow%20-%20ARI%20Movement%20-%20ARI%20Foundation%20Report%20-%20English.pdf
Denial of the Armenian Genocide is simply a position on a historical subject because of the lack of evidence to prove genocide. It does not mean anyone is anti-Armenian. It does not mean that Turks are ignorant of history, to the contrary, Turkey has a large number of books by historians that discuss the Armenian Genocide, some promoting Armenian Genocide recognition, some denying it. In a sense, the Turkish people have the best position in making an informed decision, because they are exposed to all sorts of views. There are over 70,000 Armenians in Turkey, and there are books and news articles by Turkish-Armenians, some who deny the genocide, some who accept and ask for recognition of the genocide.
Let's not forget that there are many people in Turkey whose great grandparents were killed in World War I by Armenian rebels that wreaked much havoc in Anatolia in 1915.
System of a Down's Hateful Political Attitude
Many people know System of a Down as a band that supposedly is politically motivated and a band that raises awareness on issues that trouble society.
System of a Down is a very religious band in which all of its members are Armenian Orthodox Christian. They have been raised in a specific kind of Armenian community that preaches hatred against Turks and Muslims. Although never publicly claiming their religious intents, almost all the members went to a religious school in Los Angeles; this is where they were taught their distorted view of history, the Armenian church is right inside the school! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_and_Alex_Pilibos_Armenian_School
A recent fan-made video (which Armenian organizations spread) of the song called "Holy Mountain" is about the Armenian Genocide. In the fan-made video, blame for the genocide is placed on not just Ottoman leaders but also places blame on the founders of the Turkish Republic (completely different), imagine outcry if someone attacked Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington in a song. Some Armenians even find this sort of attitude damaging to the credibility of the Armenian cause for recognition of the genocide.
Holy Mountain Lyrics Interpretation
Holy Mountain's lyrics interpretation are quite expressive and clear. The song is about Armenian Genocide recognition and promotes hatred against Turks. See for yourself:
Can you feel their haunting presence?
LIAR! KILLER! DEMON!
Back To The River Aras!
The first line in reference to the dead. The second in reference to the Ottoman leaders. The fan-made video puts pictures of Turkey's founders and Ottoman leaders (as if they were even friends; they were enemies!). The third line in reference to Armenians having to retreat past the River Aras over to Armenia where the Ottomans wouldn't be able to reach them (this is where the rebels fled when the Ottoman army came).
Someones mouth said paint them all red
Explaining that someone ordered their extermination. (the problem here is, no such orders have ever been found. And much of the historical archival evidence contradicts such an order).
We have learned that you have no....
HONOR! MURDERER! SODOMIZER!
Implying that Turks have no honor, that they are murderers and sodomizers. The reason they don't explicitly mention who, is because they leave it to the Armenian fans to label who... The Turks. (if they had written the Turks directly, they would lose a lot of fans because their racism would be extremely obvious and evident; however, if they weren't talking about the Turks, then why not be specific and say "We have learned that Talat Pasha has no...", but that wouldn't satisfy their thirst for hatred).
Promoting Hatred
Long-time fans and people who actually know about the issues--- System of A Down talks about---know the true motivation and agenda that System of A Down tries its best to hide from the mainstream media. They write about how they interpret their lyrics as angst against the Ottoman government for the genocide.
They promote an atmosphere of hatred against Turks. They talk about recognition of the Armenian Genocide as some sort of holy cause. The band members encourage this atmosphere in their documentaries. Instead of leaving history to the historians, they make it a political mission to make everyone accept their distorted version of history. This is an Anti-Turkish cause---this is racism.
Armenian activists feel no remorse for their hatred and prejudice. In fact, people show sympathy to Armenians when they start telling stories of the suffering of their people and when they constantly compare themselves to Holocaust survivors and victims (some even claim they have psychological trauma of their grandparents?).
A Little History Lesson
During World War I and the years leading up to it, the Ottoman Empire was in constant war, mostly against rebels. The Balkans rebelled against the Ottomans, the Arabs rebelled against the Ottomans, over 60 nations gained their independence from the Ottoman Empire during this decline of "The Sick Man of Europe". By 1915, the Ottoman Empire was part of the Central Powers (the losing side), and they were losing territory on all sides (the Russians were attacking from the East; the British were attacking the Dardanelles from the West and Iraq from the East). In this three-front war, the Ottomans did not have the resources or means to commit genocide. The Armenians rebelled during this time, to establish their own nation, when they were filled with nationalist dreams by the Allies.
The Ottomans had no option but to deal with the rebellion in the standard way of all European nations: forced relocations. Armenians were unhappy with this decision, rightfully. Many Armenians died on this journey. Train rides were provided where it was available. Disease and starvation plagued the Ottoman army, of course the Armenians faced the same problems and thus many died. However, even with the limited resources of the empire, money, rations, tools, and settlements were granted to the Armenians to start their new lives in their relocated locations (they weren't deported outside the empire). Hence, it's ridiculous to suggest it was genocide for anyone who is aware of the intimate history---it's perfectly acceptable to suggest that the Armenians suffered (but so did everyone in World War I).
Screamers Documentary by System of a Down
In their documentary created by Armenian propagandists called "Screamers", the band members are interviewed and are portrayed as entertainers who also raise awareness on many genocides of the world. However, while they do allude to other genocides the main purpose of the film is to convince the world that the Armenian genocide theory is as indisputable as real genocides like the Holocaust. They make it seem like they are after a noble cause, while at the same time promoting hatred against the current Turkish government. They are portrayed like as if they are victims of the genocide themselves by claiming that their grandparents were all Armenian genocide survivors. Yet a deeper look into their history reveals that we can only take their word for it.
Armenian propagandists and propaganda websites like theforgotten.org have worked together with System of a Down to create a campaign of hate against the Turkish government and anyone else who refuses to acknowledge the Armenian genocide theory as being a "fact". They label anyone who disagrees with their viewpoint as "denialists" and they avoid any opportunity to attempt to prove their genocide, and instead divert the subject to horror stories about the "evil Turks". Just like the Nazis who oppressed people of different views, the Armenian propagandists aim to alienate the Turks as an evil race that should be carried off by trains for rejecting an accusation that has no proof. They compare their genocide theory which is a complex history of rebellion and independence to completely unrelated real genocides like the Holocaust and Darfur which are all unique in order to equate their genocide to it, and to reposition it as a "common knowledge" rather than a historical inaccuracy as many Western historians who are expert in Ottoman and Armenian history find it.
Many Turks were fans of System of a Down until they began the usual propaganda after they reached fame and fortune, thanks to Armenian national committees who bribed radio stations and companies to promote SOAD music. Now they lost millions of Turkish fans who enjoy the music of their Armenian brethren.
How obsessed should one be to alienate a whole ethnicity of their fans to be "perpetrators of genocide" when they forget about the hundreds of thousands of Turks the Armenian rebels killed during the 1880s--1918 many of which began before Armenians were even killed. These events are now referred to as the Armenian nationalist movement. If you think Armenians suffer every time someone does not accept their view that it was genocide, think about how much a Turk suffers every time someone accepts the genocide as "undeniable" and accepts Armenians as poor innocent victims while your relatives suffered greatly under Armenian rebel armies. Even Hrant Dink (Armenian newspaper editor who lived in Turkey who was murdered) asked the Armenian public to think in the shoes of Turks, and to understand that only Turks and Armenians can fix their relationship and that they shouldn't force politicians to get involved.
Hate is still alive today, spreading its tentacles of propaganda even infecting history books of other countries using political pressure and bribes. Why isn't there a single Ottoman historian that supports the Armenian Genocide? Armenians should use historians to spread their message not politicians, musicians, and entertainers. There are no historians or academics support the Armenian Genocide except the very few who Armenian lobbies hired and the rest who are Armenian scholars with nationalistic motivations.
"Many Turks were fans of System of a Down until they began the usual propaganda after they reached fame and fortune, thanks to Armenian national committees who bribed radio stations and companies to promote SOAD music."
Uhh...? And your source for that is? If that's the case why aren't there a million popular Jewish bands today, as they certainly have way more bribing ability and power in America.
"One of their recent video and song called "Holy Mountain" is about the Armenian genocide theory, which is a hot topic of debate not only among the world but among Armenians as well."
There is no music video for this song. What has been circulated in Turkey as the SoaD video for this song is a pathetically ameteur fan creation (which is listed as a fan creation all along). It's just that the viewers in Turkey where it was circulated are not sophisticated enough to realize an actual system of a down music video wouldn't be made up of a slideshow of pictures to the music.
There is no debate on genocide or not amongst Armenians. Also this song never even uses the word genocide, it refers to the events and that death occured but it isn't a historical treatise as you lay it out to be.
For me its just ridiclous to link popular music with tragedic events like this. Drunken people are dancing to sound of "genocide" in discotheques.
In response to "This article is a joke"
Armenians are quite nationalist about spreading their message of "The Turks being evil" or "committing genocide". This is why the ANCA and ARF found that using entertainment to spread their message of hate would work 10x better than using standard propaganda they used for decades. And the result is, there are many system of a down fans, who know of the "Armenian genocide" and use SOAD as their source of information for this. Even in their video screamers, fans talk about it like as if they read a book on it or something.
Why would Jews need to use propaganda? The Holocaust can defend itself and is proven. The Armenian genocide theory, is simply propaganda and fails to prove the intent of the Ottomans or prove any motive for the Turks to kill a Christian minority when they have not done so for 700 years. Why pick their lowest peak of their power to kill off Armenians? It's simply silly to think the Armenian genocide is real. It's looking at the world black-and-white, instead of seeing the many shades of gray that exist in Armenian-Turkish history.
My sources for this information are expressed by Armenians themselves. Otherwise if you talk to many Americans, they either hate system of a down or they love it. It's nu-metal (they don't have enough guitar skills to be actual metal; but that's just my personal opinion) and it's a dying breed of music.
You're right, the circulated video on Youtube was made by TheForgotten.org . It isn't an official SOAD video, but it does adequately express the lyrics. In fact, SOAD supports TheForgotten.org's interpretation of the lyrics.
This is from an Armenian, who is a fan of SOAD, this is how he interprets and how thousands interpret the song as:
Here's another off of an Armenian forum:
As you can see, it is not just the video. And definitely the video does express the true meaning of the song. So I'm not sure "anonymous" what you're trying to pull by claiming I misinterpret the song when I clearly have not.
Here's another from the same Hye (Armenian) forum:
Here's an excerpt from Armeniapedia.org:
So as you can see, I'm not making this stuff up. There is quite a lot of proof and evidence that this song is about the Armenian Genocide and they blame the whole Turkish nation. If you see screamers, you'll see that the band members yell out "F*** the Turkish government" etc. It is hate-mongering, and they are simply a tool of the ARF and ANCA.
SOAD just another form of pushing this lie in a different level, they are using music as a propogenda tool which is quite smart because armenians know that genocide is not something that they can prove in international court so only way to get this lie stick is to play political, time to time being terrorists (asala) and using propogenda's.
Yes, System of a Down is a tool of Armenian propaganda.
What better way to spread messages of hate than with music? This is what neo-nazi's are doing by using rock, punk, and metal music to promote white supremacy. And System of a Down promotes hatred of Turks and the Turkish government for a genocide that is yet to be proven.
First off, I must admit SOAD has really a nice tune, I cannot resist listening to them at times. Their music kind of reminds me of my land, my culture as they use oriental tunes in their songs.(Hypnotize is a good example.)
On the other hand, it's obvious SOAD hates(or at least, doesn't like) Turks. Taking a look at Souls posters, or this image they had on their site, awhile ago is enough to see that.
But, what we should care for is, it's not only about music. I mean Armenians insert something about the so-called genocide in everything they are involved. As a reflection of the pains(?) they had, suffered from, in the past.
Sculpture, for example. Sako's this work shows what an Armenian thinks about Turks.
Armenians just won't stop spreading Turkish hatred, in every chance they get.
I really wonder what they'd do if Turkey ever recognized the so-called genocide. They'd lose the meaning of ther life and would have nothing to live for. Heh.
Music can be addicting but let us also be reminded that there are many other great musicians in the world who never get a chance to be heard on radio-airplay. If you're listening to system of a down, you probably are still very new to the vast music world. Eventually long-time listeners who's ears have become more mature and sharp, have usually settled in the end with classical music, which btw is the LARGEST growing music-genre in iTunes.
Many people usually as they get older exclusively listen to old metal, old rap, classical music, and sometimes techno/trance. Usually musics that have a deep melody.
I agree personally, I find System of a Down's music disgusting and distasteful. However I respect them as musicians, but the awful things they say about the Turkish government or their claims, are simply disrespectful, and shows their true colors and motives as propagandists who will use their fame to push a nationalistic and ethnic agenda.
Sadly, this is a common things. To say that there wasn't a Genocide because there is evidence of Hate towards the murderers. Of course there is going tobe extreme cases of hate being given to the Turks after this because they killed more than 70% of a population.
Disgusting how Turks can justify it by saying Turks died to. Turks casualties didn't account for 1% of the numbers that the Armenian Culture endured. You are only distracting the veiwers of your site with obvious facts supporting that people believe that it happened, and pointing out your OPINION. Yes, System of a down has lyrical content aimed to suggest an attack on the Armenian Race, because they are Armenian themselves and have obviously decided to fight for the cause of making it known.
Where is the proof of the Turkish stress? Of the Turkish abuse? Did the second class citizen Armenians have more power to make evidence than the grand turks?
Your entire veiw of this atrocity in human behavior leaves me sicken,a nd riddled by how anyone can suggest that the Armenian Genocide never happened. Why don't you tell them about the 6 Armenian soldiers that were brutaly and publically hung as an example of what would happen to a resistance? Or the 250 Armenian Intellectuals who were arrested and then killed? Or the many men that were "drafted" and massacred by Turks? Or even the left Children, Women, and Elderly who were focred to walk through a scorching hot desert, only to be raped, battered, starved, and eventually shot?
Nori & Halil's command for a 3 day massacre that left 30,000 dead in Baku?
This website is nothing but a cruel reminder of the disgusting denial Turkey has set.
System of a down is merely a fraction of you worried, and even now as you disgrace yourself by being ignorant to the truth of a Genocide you didn't see with your own eyes.
Students in many countries are reading about the travesty of the Ottoman Empire, and writing reports on the Genocide, and perhaps this website will be that student's proof of the pointless denial of the horrors of history.
Perhaps you will not be judged by God as cruely as Turks judged Armenains.
Aside from the occasional typo, and mentioning of belief, this guy has some good points...
I for one believe it happened, I'm sure of it. Not because of lyrical content, not because of theforgotten.org, but because of the large difference between Turkish and Armenian deaths.
There is no way in hell that a mere famine could have done that much damage alone. Especially since it only happened to Armenians and not the Turks.
The death count from both sides has a HUGE difference. Look it up.
In response to the poster who said
Regardless of whether you believe in the Armenian Genocide or not, it doesn't mean you should support such immature and racist behavior that System of a Down conducts, by using their fame to convince others to believe in their view point. How will members of System of a Down sleep at night, if a SOAD fan stabs a Turkish woman 5-6 times because of the hate that SOAD filled him/her with.
This is the WORST kind of propaganda in the planet, using music to promote hatred, it is no different than neo-nazi music artists that promote hatred against Jews, it's simply wrong, do you disagree?
I don't know about you, but when I read the article, I did not find anywhere that said that Armenian deaths were justified. It mentions that Turks too died, yes, but never did it say that murdering Armenians was acceptable. However, just as you as an Armenian, feel upset that your relatives were attacked, Turks have the very same feelings about Armenian rebels attacking their relatives, after all, they are humans, unless you disagree with that too.
In fact, I find this article to be filled with positive information and condemns racism and hatred... Have you even read it?
Doesn't seem like the article writer feels any hatred towards Armenians, only to musicians who use their music as a tool to encourage hatred. It's worse than musicians who use hate to sell CDs.
There are just as many stories of Turks being slaughtered in public, hanged, decapitated, mutilated, and raped by Armenian rebels who came in strong numbers together with the Russian invasion and the French invasion.
Armenians who were drafted usually deserted the Ottoman army in World War I and took as many weapons and ammunition as they could to aid the rebellions.
If it wasn't for the Armenian rebellions, there wouldn't have been a relocation decree (the government had to stop the violence amongst Armenian locals and Muslim locals; and killing them or locking them up would ensure that the European powers would intervene including its Christian ally Germany), and those Armenian civilians wouldn't have had to walk, and in places where there was trains, like Cilicia, they didn't have to walk, and usually they had horses, donkeys, mules, or caravans.
This is exactly what the article talks about, the hate and labeling of Turks and Turkey because of differing points of views. Why can't you accept that Turks have a different point of view? Do you fear that if people see the Turk's opinions as an opinion rather than "propaganda" or "denialism" that the truth will come out?
The horrors of history and especially world war I were felt greatly by Turks, Armenians, and many other ethnicities. Stop assuming that Armenians are extra special just because they are Christian.
People use to write reports about how savage the Native Indians were, but historians changed that misconception, this will change as well, because there needs to be proof before a conclusion is reached, Armenians however, want to skip the proving step and go right into the conclusion part.
The large difference is also a form of propaganda. Since many Armenian historians have written books about the tragedy of the Armenians including unverifiable information about death tolls, people on the web and other places have simply echoed it since they are not going to be able to go and verify each source or reference.
The real death toll is 523,000 OF Turkish civilians who died TO Armenian rebels, volunteer units, and gangs. While the Armenian death toll is thought to be somewhere between 600,000-800,000 and this INCLUDES disease, hunger, lack of medical supplies, and exhaustion from travel.
I found this in the gallery:
It shows several sources, that talk about the population in 1915 or close to it. The numbers barely reach 1.5 million, so how can 1.5 million Armenians die? Even if 1,000,000 of them died, how could their world population be 9 million today, that's like rabbits!
The reason for the high death toll, is disease, hunger, lack of medical supplies, and exhaustion from travel. Though there have been many incidents of massacres, if you count up the rumored death tolls of these massacres, even that doesn't come close to 800,000.
Remember, death tolls are hard to tell, because of so many factors. Researchers verify with multiple sources before accepting one death toll, with the Armenian case, since so many Armenian sources say 1.5 million etc, they think it is verified. But do you really think they counted each body that died by weapon?
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Armenia Prevails!
Typical Armenian Response, by someone who hasn't studied the history. It's always funny to see how nationalist Armenians are, and even more funny when Armenians talk about Turkish nationalism, when their nationalism is based on Turkish hate.
That may be a typical Armenian response, but I think that you really have no place in commenting on something that you have not experienced. The Armenian people are hurt so and maybe you think lets rub some salt in there, how compassionate.
I'd like to suggest something. Go do some studying on history since you seem to like that. There were more front page news stories about the Armenian Genocide IN THE UNITED STATES than there were about the Jewish Holocaust. If you want to ignore what Armenians have witnessed then read the stories of the American, German, and other missionaries and people who were there. There are pictures to prove it also. I'd suggest you read the treatment of the Armenians leading to the Genocide. Anyone with a brain would see the truth once they new all the fact and its as simple as that.
I'm Armenian and I do not hate Turkish people. I also think that it's a shame that the United States refuses to recognize the Armenian Genocide and encourages the Turkish Government to continue teaching their kids in school to deny what happened.
Armenians are almost invisible in the world with such a tiny population who has pretty much been ignored. Read Hitler's book. He started by writing that no one even remembered the ARmenian Genocide, which made him think he can kill Jews.
Armenians are not heard when they call for justice and here we have one band that has made it that far and they feel it their duty to have the voices of Armenians be heard through them.
Please learn more history as a favor to yourself and human kind.
To add something....
I don't think that hating Turks is good and teaching people to hate them is good either. I can also understanding that a lifetime of denial can have you turn to hatred. Many Armenians have lost their faith, sure they are "christian" but a true christian wouldn't hate. Armenians can be very angry people sometimes but who wouldn't. The Jewish people wouldn't have this problem because the world never denied what happened to them nor the people who did it.
I'm glad that System of a Down is speaking for Armenians. I wish it was done without all the hatred but what else would you expect when Armenians have been treated so insignificantly. It's like blaming troubled/ at risk teens who have been abused for the nasty way they act after all their experiences. If you think after someone is raped, degraded, and treated as a dog would turn out to be compassionate then you're insane. Only a small fraction of people can find it in them to become loving and forgiving to those who destroyed their friends, parents, and siblings in brutal ways.
Armenians find it hard to heal when the world ignores them and doesn't believe them. How do you feel when you've been treated badly? How do you feel when after you've been treated badly, no one cares or even recognizes it?
Unless you are Dalai Lama, I bet you or at least a part of you might become hateful and angry.
There are many historians that corroborate that many in the media were paid by Woodrow Wilson's people to cover stories of Christian killings in World War One to enrage the public into supporting America's entry into World War One.
The hate always seems to be directed at Germany and Turkey, who were enemies of the Allies.
You're welcome to sort through our [url=http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/gallery]photograph gallery[/img] and see all the news articles during and before 1915 about the aggression and atrocities committed by Armenian rebels.
Why are you ignoring the testimonies of the Muslims who witnessed so many atrocities by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation established in 1890?
I have read the missionary and US and German consuls and diplomats who were there on the scene, and even they corroborate that there was no Armenian Genocide plan and that the Ottoman government actually helped the Armenians many times during and before the relocations.
The Jews don't have any denial problem because they have proven their genocide, but the Armenians only have witness testimonies and books by suspicious characters during those times, that does not prove genocide.
Intent and documents prove genocide, so far no documents proving an Armenian Genocide plan has been uncovered for 93 years.
How come you are so concerned about the wounds of Armenians but not at all concerned about the wounds of Turks? The Turks suffered massacres by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation and on top of that they are being blamed for genocide when they were the victims (and they never received US Aid which 500,000 Armenians received in Aleppo after the relocations according to US Consul J.B. Jackson), that is worse than being victims of genocide.
msdoctorx, you are a really typical armenian commenter.
You just look at the issues from forged testimonies, pictures and quotes and then you conclude that there is a genocide when majority of Ottoman-Armenian historians refuse the idea of a genocide because of lack of evidence.
You even qouted from Hitler which is a forged qoute. EVEN IF IT WAS NOT, it is so pathetic of you to need to qoute from someone definitely not sane just to prove your cause. Hitler was not a sane person, anyone with a sane mind would not take what he had seriously anyway.
But that is how desperate you are. You hold onto forged testimonies, qoutes or even Turkish dead body pics labelled as Armenian bodies. You hold onto hate and massacre stories by your parents and environment instead of trying to look ahead into future. You just hold onto a part of history you think is true.
You know what, I lost part of my family in the events of 1915 and I was never raised with an Armenian hate. My husband has Armenian patients and my in-laws have Armenian neigbours. We leave in peace in Turkey.
Although you are saying that you are not supporting hate towards Turkish peeple, by supporting system of a down, you are indeed supporting racism and hatred.
You are telling people to go read about history but unfortunately when saying that you sound ignorant. I suggest you start reading about real history not from propaganda over the net which is taken over by Armenian Diaspora long ago anyway, but by researches and books of Ottoman-Armenian historians.
I can even recommend one to start with: Erich Feigl explaining in his book, Armenian Mythomania the reasons of Armenian terrorism.
Maybe then instead of thinking that only your loss counts or matters and instead of thinking that you are a super nation or so, you start to empathy and see yourself for who you are.
I am neither Turkish nor Armenian. I have studied some time, on my own, about the whole Armenian "Genocide", as I want to know and judge by myself rather than being fed from Armenian propaganda.
Turks have a problem with not having a real support system when it comes to lobbing, behind and in front of the curtains of the world's scene. This way a population, such as Armenians, can easily come and use an unfortunate date in history and claim it to be what it has never been. Numbers of victims are exaggerated and blown out of proportions, those times Anatolia was numbering a mere 2 000.000 people that includes Kurds and all other ethnic groups, so 1.500.000 fails in being credible.
It was a war time and times were cloudy for the Ottoman Empire, who saw that rebellion/ alliance with Russians coming from Armenians as a low blow that will put their nation in danger. Again understandable, many nations would react to a "Judas moment" in a way or another.
Many Armenian children left orphans after the war and deportation, as I prefer to call it war and deportation rather than "genocide", were adopted in Turkish families. Turks are one of the most family oriented nations around this world and I bet they feel empathy for all the people who died during those troubled times.
If it was intended to be a genocide (noun- the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group), considering the Ottoman Empire resources, it would be no Armenian left on the surface of Earth to multiply and lobby for this story.
Besides, before the tragic events, Armenians were holding respectable positions within the Empire, even in politics, being involved in 20 ministries and living in peace with the Turkish people.
If you, Armenians, believe in what you say, come in front of International Court with all the evidence and let International Law decide. Do not lobby behind politicians and pressure people to believe in what you cannot prove. Do not abuse your positions in countries such America and their politic scene to make your way up. It is up to historians to write the HISTORY. Politics fails at being accurate and impartial in any given situation.
I am sad over the death of all the victims of that time, whether Armenians or Turkish but I want the historical TRUTH to prevail, and so far.... all I see is Armenian people posing in victims and lobbying to all governments and Turkish people doing too little to show the other side of the story.
There is no evidence, as of yet, to make me believe that those events were a genocide, on the contrary, all the strings that Armenians pull recently in their lobbying via all mediums worries me that politicians are just puppets, with no brain and we are in bad, bad hands for the future, which will create a precedent of pressure and lies.
My advice, to whomever is interested in this topic, please do your research in depth, on both fronts and judge for yourself before drawing any conclusion. In the end everything falls in place so logically.
I am happy I have found this website, it makes my beliefs stronger and stronger. Thank you for all the research and articles.
I am neither Turkish nor Armenian. I have studied some time, on my own, about the whole Armenian "Genocide", as I want to know and judge by myself rather than being fed from Armenian propaganda.
Turks have a problem with not having a real support system when it comes to lobbing, behind and in front of the curtains of the world's scene. This way a population, such as Armenians, can easily come and use an unfortunate date in history and claim it to be what it has never been. Numbers of victims are exaggerated and blown out of proportions, those times Anatolia was numbering a mere 2 000.000 people that includes Kurds and all other ethnic groups, so 1.500.000 fails in being credible.
It was a war time and times were cloudy for the Ottoman Empire, who saw that rebellion/ alliance with Russians coming from Armenians as a low blow that will put their nation in danger. Again understandable, many nations would react to a "Judas moment" in a way or another.
Many Armenian children left orphans after the war and deportation, as I prefer to call it war and deportation rather than "genocide", were adopted in Turkish families. Turks are one of the most family oriented nations around this world and I bet they feel empathy for all the people who died during those troubled times.
If it was intended to be a genocide (noun- the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group), considering the Ottoman Empire resources, it would be no Armenian left on the surface of Earth to multiply and lobby for this story.
Besides, before the tragic events, Armenians were holding respectable positions within the Empire, even in politics, being involved in 20 ministries and living in peace with the Turkish people.
If you, Armenians, believe in what you say, come in front of International Court with all the evidence and let International Law decide. Do not lobby behind politicians and pressure people to believe in what you cannot prove. Do not abuse your positions in countries such America and their politic scene to make your way up. It is up to historians to write the HISTORY. Politics fails at being accurate and impartial in any given situation.
I am sad over the death of all the victims of that time, whether Armenians or Turkish but I want the historical TRUTH to prevail, and so far.... all I see is Armenian people posing in victims and lobbying to all governments and Turkish people doing too little to show the other side of the story.
There is no evidence, as of yet, to make me believe that those events were a genocide, on the contrary, all the strings that Armenians pull recently in their lobbying via all mediums worries me that politicians are just puppets, with no brain and we are in bad, bad hands for the future, which will create a precedent of pressure and lies.
My advice, to whomever is interested in this topic, please do your research in depth, on both fronts and judge for yourself before drawing any conclusion. In the end everything falls in place so logically.
I am happy I have found this website, it makes my beliefs stronger and stronger. Thank you for all the research and articles.
First of all im a Turkish but im not here to talk about if the genoside is true or not.
The thing is its sad to see Armenians swearing as a response to this article. It is sad because in real life it is not like that. There are many Armenians living in Turkey and there is no hate.
What i see from Soad holy mountain clip is that there are messages like We will never forget which indicates this issue is trying to be carried to next generations. Turkish goverment is really corperative when it comes to letting Armenians do a deep investigation about the issue but it is indeed true that they never did it. Im not trying to say that there wasnt a genoside. Im not a Time traveler, from what they teach us there was a way and we also lost our grandfathers and grandmothers. And yes there are also stories about Armenians slaughtered some towns and killed people in ugly ways. But im not showing any hatred against Armenians. it is indeed true that only way to solve this situation is going through historians.
Media is a powerfull way of controlling the majority( This goes for the Turkish media too ) Well i dont know about Armenia but there arent any ANT?-Armenian messages when i open my T.V.
As an ex SOAD listener it made me really sad that they are using the fame as a tool of propoganda.
Some lrycs and pictures i saw on SOAD's site are just wierd.
I mean lets assume that there was a genoside. Are we Demons ? and the event happaned many years ago.. Am i a demon ? 70 million turk living atm is just evil seeds that needs to be purged from earth ?
What im saying is yes there is an issue but swearing, hatered is a really bad way to make people belive in your side of story.
Besides that i saw that in the holy mountain clip they are calling Mustafa Kemal Atatürk as a demon and liar the thing is if you have some knowlage about the history, he have no connection to those events. Only connection that can be made to the issue is General Enver and Talat. and in their letters they are not saying go on a killing spree.
I do respect Armenian side of views but we are not living in the dark ages. Please reflect your oppinions in a civilized manner because bad attitude is just making the situation even worst.
The armenian folk is one of the oldest in the world. They have accomplished to keep their culture and traditions for thousends of years.
In WWI the major part of the armenian population was forced to leave there homeland. Armenians are beholden to anatolia. All of there holy places are located in anatolia like Masis and Ararat. These are the most important places for the armenians and they were forced to leave these places.
I guess that the lost of the right to live in there homeland with their holy mountains is the reason for this "never ending" hate and lie campaign against turkish people and culture.
Territorial pretensians. Nothing else seems to be the reason for these lies and overstatements.
This is the reason why a historical analysis of the things happend in WWI is not wanted from most of the armenian opinion makers.
It was a tradegy for the armenian people but the relocating of the armenian people which are collaborating with Russia and France (armenians were located near the border to russia) was a military necessary decision for the ottoman decision makers. From my point of view it is comprehensible...
From the ottoman point of view it was a tradegy that armenians which had a good position in the ottoman empire decided to be "on the other side".
On the bottom line one can say that WWI and the "population changes" were a desaster for all ethnic groups of the ottoman empire.
is not true. Turks just jealous that we have such people: the famous and know their history!
im from ireland, i dont hate turkish or armenians nor do i have personal links with either
ive really just started reading into this long debate, looking into a variety of sources, sites and statements and in all honesty i have found this website very one sided with one article after an other slowly building a conclusion to the turks innocence against the evil lying armenians and such.
ironic for a debate website
I havn't reached much of a final judgement yet but the armenian genocide seems a likely event of the early 20th century.
Truth to be told, your comments moved me, I am neither Armenian nor Turk and I feel EXACTLY the same way as you do....
I have spent endless nights reading all I could on this "genocide" issue. My conclusions are the same as yours....
It scares me to no end that the world we live in moves around pressure and lies and laws such as the ones in France and Switzerland, where I cannot voice loudly my opinion, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE ARMENIAN "GENOCIDE".
@Anonymous from Ireland, instead of noting that this site has some sort of bias as you claim, why don't you counter our arguments or find research contradictory to what our articles are saying. I don't always agree with all my colleagues on this topic, but almost every Ottoman historian I know, agrees that it cannot be considered genocide.
Instead of using ad hominem attacks, please use substance in your arguments.
This is a debate site, where a person like yourself, is free to debate anyone through comments. You're free to submit articles to AGD (if you are a historian) and we will publish it, if we find the research to be credible.
What have you found on our site that isn't backed up by research?
I've removed some opinion-form sentences from various articles when emails were sent contradicting those opinions. We always work hard to bring you the best research without bias. We peer review our articles.
If you disagree with any of our articles, simply because you believe in the genocide, that's not a crime or grounds for criticism. There's no reason to call us biased if we simply disagree with your conclusion that it was genocide. When scientists disagree with the conclusion of intelligent design by creationists, that doesn't make them biased. They've studied the evidence, just as we have, and founded our own conclusions.