- Hitler Quote a Proof of Armenian genocide?
- The Malta Tribunals & Nuremberg Tribunals
- Holocaust is Well-Documented without Forgeries
- Mein Kampf by Hitler
- World Recognition without Debate
- Jews and Armenians Live Differently
- Nazi Germany and the Ottoman Empire
- Ottoman War Effort - Middle Eastern Theatre of World War I
- Minorities
- Ottoman Archives have Become Easily Accessible
- A Summary of Differences between the Armenian Genocide thesis and the proven Holocaust
- Armenians in World War II?
- Sources
Some Armenians have compared the events prior to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire to the Holocaust. This comparison is very far-fetched, let's consider all the details of the Holocaust and the Armenian-Ottoman ethnic conflict.
Today, many Armenian scholars argue that what happened to them during 1915 in the Ottoman Empire was a mass murder that constituted genocide. The motives they define range from jealousy to pan-Turkism. They argue that the Armenians were deported during 1915 from their homeland for simply being Armenian. Many scholars have given credence to the arguments because of the obscurity of the history of the Ottoman Empire and the lack of documents regarding the events (some of which such as in Armenia, are locked up).
Turkish scholars and Western Ottoman experts argue that Armenians were rebelling since the 1880s due to the rise of nationalism and the interferences of the European powers in Ottoman affairs that led to tensions between the local Muslims and Armenians in Eastern Anatolia. They argue that European powers mostly Russia and Britain have consistently incited rebellions in the Ottoman Empire and then creating propaganda to support armed intervention by Russia or Britain.
The Armenian scholars point to similarities between the Holocaust and what they define as the Armenian Genocide. They mention involvement of the Ottoman secret police (The Special Organization) to draw parallels between it and the Gestapo of Nazi Germany; however, there is almost no documents to support this assertion. They describe horrible conditions of Armenians in concentration camps, but fail to mention that they were actually refugee camps in which European consuls could visit anytime they wanted.
Although some of these parallels can be debated extensively, it should be noted that such comparisons can lead to incredible bias because they are completely different events and trying to equate them to each other is simply wrong. In addition, equating the suffering of Armenians (which is unfortunate) to the horrendous suffering and mass extermination of the Jews is incredibly wrong.
It is always a good method for a historian to compare events to understand them better, but to use the comparison as proof of genocide, or to create misleading or unrelated parallels between the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide is wrong.
Hitler Quote a Proof of Armenian genocide?
Some Armenian Genocide proponents claim that "When Hitler was asked about what the rest of the world do about his ‘final solution’ (his attempt to exterminate the Jews) he replied that it will be forgotten, like the Armenians." Although, more usually some Armenian Genocide proponents quote Hitler as justifying the extermination of the Jews because of his expertise on Armenia:
Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
This quote was from a forgery written by an unknown person on plain piece of paper and labeling it as "Hitler's second speech" even though he only gave one speech that day. http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/09/1931-original-documentation-for-hitler.html
The assertion that Hitler made a reference to the Armenians in any context whatsoever is without foundation.
We now know that, like the infamous Hitler Quote, the so-called extermination orders of Talat Pasha were forgeries. The only relevant Ottoman documents that have come to light indicate a generally solicitous attitude toward deported Armenians.
This seems to be a part of Armenian Genocide proponents who are campaigning the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by equating it to a proven genocide, the Holocaust, because it is very well known.
The suffering of the Jews in the Holocaust is very well known throughout the world. Trying to make connections between, one of the most recognized perpetrator of genocide, Adolf Hitler, and what happened to the Armenians by claiming that Hitler used what happened to the Armenians to justify his extermination of the Jews is a prime example of world class propaganda.
The Malta Tribunals & Nuremberg Tribunals
118 Ottoman officials were imprisoned in the island of Malta for two and a half years and without lawyers because the British public demanded justice for massacres of Armenians that were always appearing in the newspapers. Though Britain knew that the media was used throughout World War I to paint an evil picture of the Central Powers and especially the Ottoman Empire, they fell victim to their own propaganda and were forced to create a military tribunal to punish the Ottomans for war crimes and try to calm the British public they themselves had enraged.
The Malta Tribunal that began on May 28, 1919 was a predecessor to the Nuremberg trials, even with all the evidence and archives of the Ottoman Empire at their fingertips they failed to find any evidence supporting the theory that the Ottomans had ordered a plan of genocide to exterminate the Armenians. The arrests continued as evidence was searched for throughout the world.
In fact, the Ottoman archives, since they were captured by the British (the occupation of Constantinople), were handed to an Armenian archivist who could read Ottoman documents, Haig Kazarian, to search for any evidence of crimes against humanity.
The British Foreign Office contacted the U.S. State Department and requested documents that might be used as evidence to prove the guilt of Ottoman leaders. The US State Department replied that it only had documents of testimonies and massacres but absolutely no document that would link any of the leaders to any crimes. [1]
On November 8th, 1920, Harry Lamb who made most of the recommendations for the arrest of Ottoman leaders, wrote:
[Not one of the Malta prisoners] was arrested on any evidence of the legal sense. It is safe to say that very few 'dossiers' as they now stand would not be marked 'no case' by a practical lawyer.
The infamous "Talat Pasha telegrams" inside Aram Andonian's book, in which the Minister of Interior of the Ottoman Empire ordered the extermination of the Armenians, were flat out rejected by Harry Lamb where he noted the lack of official documents that ordered genocide of the Armenians. [3]
All the news articles describing the suffering of Armenians, the Armenian testimonies of attacks, and the forgeries in Aram Andonian's books were all ignored as propaganda by the British High Commission office in charge of the Malta Tribunals.
The Ottoman officials were released, only to be killed later in other nations by Armenian terrorists in "Operation Nemesis". In contrast, the Nuremberg trials however, did find the Nazi officials guilty with overwhelming evidence and documentation of their crimes.
Armenian scholars have argued that they were only released because the British needed to trade 118 Ottoman high officials for British prisoners of war (of which there were only about 30 of them) in the hands of nationalist Turks (who rejected the Sevres Treaty and the leadership of the Ottoman government). However, it makes little sense for the British to trade 118 high class officials for only 30 British men, especially since the nationalist Turks had no respect for the Ottoman government and thus would probably not care too much about Ottoman prisoners.
Holocaust is Well-Documented without Forgeries
The Holocaust was well documented, with Allied soldiers witnessing the horrors of death camps and finding millions of Nazi prisoners who were obviously tortured. In addition, they had video footage of mass graves and piles of bodies, with truckloads of photos.
Many photographs that are attributed to the Armenian Genocide have unidentified bodies, in many cases the perpetrators in the picture have no relation to the Ottomans. Some images were doctored others were paintings edited to look like photos of horrible massacres, but most seem to be unrelated images of suffering that do not relate to the Armenians or Turks. One of the images that is frequently used is of the Lebanese Famine.
Mass graves relating to an Armenian Genocide have not been uncovered. Armenian scholars argue that the Turkish government is covering up the mass graves, and the Turkish government counters that if that were true, there would be many mass graves in Syria or Iraq which are no longer Turkish territories (but it is the location that many Armenians were exiled to).
In contrast, the Nazi documentation and archives are an indisputable and the Allies found thousands of documents of orders from high commanders ordering mass killings, the building of gas chambers, and the use of bodies in an industrial fashion as raw materials as expressed in the Final Solution of Hitler.
In fact, many Nazi officials and soldiers admitted to the atrocities and as a defense said they had to do what they were ordered to do. Nazi Germany admitted genocide because of the fact that it was well documented and proven. The Turkish government denies the Armenian Genocide, and some observers believe that this is somehow an admission of guilt but they forget that in a murder trial both the innocent and the guilty deny their crimes.
Many historians who have heard of this comparison note that the Armenians had rebelled before 1915 numerous times, and yet the Jews of Nazi Germany had never rebelled. The rebellions of Armenians explain why Armenians died in large numbers, as authorities and local inhabitants took revenge for massacres initiated by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation.
Mein Kampf by Hitler
Adolf Hitler, has written in his book Mein Kampf that he wanted to get rid of the Jews. He explicitly threatened Jews in public speeches and many Nazi soldiers have received orders from him and his commanders to exterminate Jews. There are many audio recordings and videos that prove the Nazi era hate and extermination of the Jews. So far no book by the leaders of the Ottoman Empire was ever uncovered explaining a desire to exterminate Armenians. In fact, the Committee of Union and Progress gained power by working with the Armenian Revolutionary Federation to overthrow Sultan AbdulHamid II since they both hated him but for different reasons.
It seems that the Ottoman government had no ill-intention towards the Armenians until the rebellions began to damage the Ottoman war effort against Russia.
No historian of Turkish or Ottoman origin has ever found documents that prove the Armenian Genocide though many non-historians have had a variety of opinions.
Accusations of genocide need to be proven without a doubt otherwise it should be assumed that the government accused of genocide is innocent until proven guilty. The Turks themselves would have no problem pointing their fingers at Enver Pasha, Talat Pasha, and other Turkish generals because they had caused great failures for the Turkish people. Especially since the Turkish nation fought against the Ottoman leadership and established modern Turkey in opposition to the Ottoman Empire.
World Recognition without Debate
In addition, the Holocaust is widely recognized throughout the world except maybe in Iran. The Armenian Genocide is widely viewed by neutral positions as an on-going controversy and debate that historians still need to solve (archives related to it are still to be found). The Armenian archives that detail the involvement of the Dashnaks, Hunchaks, and Armenakan rebel organizations and their deals with European governments is yet to be unlocked!
There are only a handful of countries that actually recognize the Armenian Genocide, each has a large majority of Armenians and organizations with lobbyists and voters pressuring politicians to pass such bills. These countries include but are not limited to, are France, Switzerland, Russia, Lebanon, and Argentina. Notice though if you were to research the Armenian Diaspora, you would find large populations of Armenians (the Armenian Diaspora) in all those countries that recognize the events as genocide. These parliaments however, are stealing the role of a judiciary system rather than behaving as legislative bodies.
One would only have to imagine how Americans would feel if some governments at random moments in time recognized a "Japanese Genocide" (because of imprisonment of Japanese-Americans or use of Nuclear Weapons), or a "Native Indian Genocide".
Jews and Armenians Live Differently
During World War II and before, many Jews lived in Ghettos and were classified as second class citizens. During the Nazi regime, many Jews were taken out of German schools, were forced to wear a yellow Star of David indicating the person is Jewish and were not even allowed in public places.
Armenians were not labeled by any symbol on their clothes; Turks and Armenians have lived together in peace for centuries. There was no hatred against Armenians until Armenian rebellions in the East. Nonetheless, the Western Armenians remained unharmed and untouched throughout World War I.
Most of the Armenians knew Turkish and could easily blend in if they wanted. Only cities of known Armenian populations were relocated to Syria in order to stop the rebellion and ethnic war that was rampant in the region. The Armenians had their own schools, churches, and lived alongside many Turkish, Greek, Kurdish, Jewish, and Azerbaijani communities.
If the suffering of Armenians was directed by the Turkish government with the motive of ethnic superiority, then the Kurds, Greeks, and Azerbaijanis would also be subjected to the Relocation laws (Tehcir law) just like the Armenians. If there was a religious motivation, then the Jews would be relocated as well. However, only the Armenians were relocated, not even the Christian Nestorians (Assyrians) were relocated. It seems more plausible that Armenians were relocated in order to hastily disrupt the Armenian rebellions that were damaging the Ottoman war effort during World War I.
Nazi Germany and the Ottoman Empire
When Nazi Germany began exterminating the Jews they were at the peak of their power, the Kristallnacht was in 1938 and other antisemitic laws were passed before the final solution. Hitler believed the world would fall under Nazi power in a short time. They had the money, time, and manpower to exterminate the Jews and even engineer their bodies into raw materials.
However, the Ottoman Empire ever since the 1700s was declining and was labeled the Sick Man of Europe. It had to fight at least three rebellions in the last 10 years, and was at war in several fronts against the Allies at a time when the Central Powers were loosing and the Ottoman Empire was on the verge of collapse (which it did a couple of years after 1915). One should think critically that at a time when the Ottomans had limited arms, money, and soldiers there would be no motive to exterminate a small minority of Armenians.
The government was losing precious soldiers on Armenian rebellions within its territory when such soldiers were needed at the front. The Armenian rebels were cutting vital telegraph lines to disrupt military communication and had created guerrilla warfare in the Middle East. The Ottoman government found that the only way to disrupt the rebellion quickly before they became even stronger was to distribute the Armenian populations to within 10% of the Muslim population of any region thereby ceasing the Armenian rebel activities. The Turkish national guard was used to relocate Armenians on May 27th 1915 as a response to the Armenian rebellion in Van of April 1915. The Ottoman government would not have punished its own officials (court-martial of 1,637 Ottoman officials) for mistreating exiled Armenians if it was attempting extermination.
Ottoman War Effort - Middle Eastern Theatre of World War I
This information added 2/4/08
The Battle of Galipoli was raging in 1915, beginning April 25th 1915, against the British, French and Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZACs) in Western Turkey, the Dardanelles, in which the Turks won but with heavy casualties. There were many battles in the Mesopotamian Campaign and the Caucasus Campaign, since October 29th 1914, the Ottomans were deep in war, and the Ottoman Empire suffering a crushing defeat at the Battle of Sarikamis (losing about 75,000 experienced soldiers to winter cold in the East) in December, 1914. It seems that propagandists want everyone to believe that the empire dropped everything to exterminate a minority for simply being a minority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eastern_theatre_of_World_War_I
Study the image below, the red areas are major areas of battles of the Ottoman Empire. Notice how Armenia and the lands surrounding it was engulfed in war, starvation, and disease, a major factor in the large death tolls of Armenians. The fact that hundreds of thousands of Armenian revolutionaries joined the Russian's in the war, and many joined the French legions in Syria:
One must note that in such a desperate time, the Ottoman Empire would be too busy fighting a world war on several fronts to commit soldiers, time, and money to kill Armenians.
Minorities
The Jews in Europe were a large minority, but the Armenians were a small minority that is smaller than some of the other non-Muslim minorities of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire is a diverse empire that allows local governors to have their own laws as long as they pay taxes and express their allegiance to the Ottoman Empire. In fact, it is one of the few empires who allowed religious freedom with the exception of a tax on non-Muslim populations. However, churches, synagogues, and other religious temples still remain in tact from the Ottoman era, so there was no religious hate against Armenians. In fact, some of the Armenian Church's religious leaders inside Turkey today display their disbelief in an Armenian Genocide.
Ottoman Archives have Become Easily Accessible
All German archives have been open to the public that clearly contain evidence of genocide. The Ottoman/Turkish archives are also open to the public, and have invited historians around the world to study their archives. The Armenian archives are closed because many Armenians claim that the Armenian Genocide is not debated and therefore unnecessary to open Armenian archives to the public.
Many wonder what the Armenian government has to hide. Armenian historians and Armenian Genocide supporters also refuse public debate that Turkey and pro-Turkish historians always initiate. They claim that the debate would cast doubt on the Armenian Genocide and is therefore unacceptable. However, educated individuals know that debate is a method for which we can use to reach the truth.
A Summary of Differences between the Armenian Genocide thesis and the proven Holocaust
- There were no hate speeches in the Ottoman Empire against Armenians; There were in Nazi Germany.
- Armenians target Turks as a whole when the blame-train comes by, not differentiating between generations, and saying the Turks are just as guilty for denying the genocide. Jews blame Nazi Germany at the time, and the party leadership, and the followers who committed the genocide.
- Jews were identified by the Star of David before the Holocaust so that the Nazis can identify them easily when the genocide comes and they were able to be racist towards Jews more easily. Armenians could not be identified unless you follow them into their church.
- Jews were separated into communities isolated into Ghettos. Armenians were not separated but some villages were known to be mostly Armenians.
- Jews were the continuous target of prejudice and racism by Germans which was well documented. While Armenians were never a target of hate for the 600 years they were ruled over, they ruled their own region with their own local government.
- Jews were hated and prejudiced against before the Nazi regime, Hitler acted on these age old prejudices, however there is no such history of that with Armenians and Turks.
- Jews did not rebel against the Nazis. Armenians rebelled many times before 1915, and even during 1890s when their rebel organizations first formed.
- There were no Jewish generals, no Jewish soldiers, rebels, or rebel organizations that fought against the Nazis. In contrast, Armenian organizations, generals who committed many massacres of Muslims were abundant.
- Jews did not own weapons, they did not have mass storage of armaments. Armenians had thousands of arms, easily brought to the Ottoman Empire through Iran or Russia by the smugglers. Some scholars argue that Armenians gathered weapons for self-defense, but they were not lightly distributed amongst individuals but gathered in strategic locations to be used where they were hidden as a garrison of rebellion. Barricades and trenches were created during the Van Rebellion of April 1915 as well as in 1896.
Armenians in World War II?
As expressed in Samuel A. Weems's book, the Armenians were declared as Aryan pure in 1943 by Hitler because of the on-going support in Armenia and abroad by Armenians support of racism against Jews and support of the Nazi Regime.
Armenian newspapers supported the Nazi regime throughout World War II:
Armenians themselves in many Hye (Armenia) forums:
Nazi SS Armenians marching:
Armenians denying the Holocaust:
Armenian Anti-Semite website:
Armenians discussing about Aryan-hood.
Sources
- ^ The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey by Guenter Lewy (2005), p. 122-125
- ^ The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey by Guenter Lewy (2005), p. 124
- ^ The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey by Guenter Lewy (2005), p. 124
do u really think all of those victims randomly thought up their terrible stories of death marches? do u really think all those people randomly died at the same year in history? do u rally that the New York Times and other major US papers made up the articles that were printed about the killings in the Ottoman Empire? Not all genocides are done the same way. Just because the Armenian Genocide was different than the Holocaust doesnt mean it didnt exist. If I were u, i would seriously rethink my beliefs.
This website has never said Armenians didn't die. The website has never said Armenians didn't suffer. This website has never said Armenians made up any stories. But you sir, are confusing the meaning of killings and massacre with the legal definition of genocide. There is a big difference.
If you actually read the article, you'd notice that the Holocaust is a proven genocide proven by Nazi documentation, witnesses, and thousands of sources of solid evidence.
You mention the New York Times printing stories about Armenian survivors, but you might have also missed our gallery:
http://www.armeniangenocidehoax.com/gallery where there is a Newspaper Articles section, showing NY Times articles of how Armenians were rebelling. Though it does not EXCUSE any killings, it does show the real tensions between Muslims and Christians and the fact that both sides committed inhumane atrocities.
You cannot say a genocide existed, because a genocide is just the proof of intent to eradicate a minority. You can say if massacres existed or not, because these leave physical evidence. Genocide is an arbitrary crime attributed to governments who commit massacres or encourage them in order to wipe out a GROUP. This was not the case of the Ottoman Empire and the Armenians.
Armenians died yes, but just because large Armenians died doesn't mean you should ignore the large death tolls of the Ottoman Muslims by Armenian volunteer units, gangs, and rebels. It should also be important to note that there is still no proof of intent by the Ottoman government to eliminate Armenians, because they had no motive to eliminate the Armenians. They had motives to move Armenian populations away from war-zones, but wasting money, time, effort, and man-power to exterminate a race is just too far fetched.
If I were you I would look up the definition of genocide by the United Nations, and then find some documents that prove the Ottoman's genocidal intent before I argue about it. What you'll find is, even Armenian historians struggle to find authentic evidence of a genocide, some point to forgeries, some point to death tolls and speculation as proof.
Armenians may have died in large numbers, but do not assume it is proof of a genocide, because Turks also died in large numbers to Armenian rebel armies and Armenian volunteers in the hundreds of thousands in the Russian Army and French Legion.
If large death tolls of Armenians equaled genocide... Then the deaths of large numbers of Native Americans also mean genocide. Then the large numbers of African-Americans dying to lynch mobs and slavery are also a genocide. Then the large numbers of Azeris killed by Armenian Armed Forces in 1992-1994, is also genocide. Then the large numbers of Talibans killed in Afghanistan is also genocide.
you must be crazy by saying the Armenian Genocide didn't happen. There are primary sources saying that it did happen. Saying that it didn't happen is like denying the Holocaust. If we don't realize it, it will happen again
The primary sources you talk about describe massacres, killings, starvation, and disease. Primary sources talk about how they witness death and suffering, which was happening to almost every ethnicity during World War I. However, only forgeries have been offered by Armenian historians to prove that the government intended to exterminate Armenians. The problem is, there is too much evidence and telegrams showing the compassion that Talat Pasha and other members of the CUP Government of 1915 showed to the Christian and especially Armenian populations.
The CUP government made some terrible decisions like the Armenian deportations, but it wasn't intended to kill Armenians, only relocate them from a war zone where Armenian Rebels (Dashnaks and Hunchaks) who had also captured the city of Van were aiding the Russian Invasion (who arrived in Van, Turkey-- May, 1915) and damaging the Ottoman war front.
The Holocaust, if you had actually read the article, was proven by witnesses because they had found physical evidence of state funded and built gas chambers, ovens with human remains, and most importantly Nazi archival evidence and physical evidence of meetings on how they planned and determined to exterminate the Jews. No such evidence exists for the Ottomans in 1915, only a lot of massacres committed by local people due to tensions between Muslims and Christians with the Armenian Rebels being the catalyst to the eventual exile of the Armenian community.
So, please know the difference between genocide and massacres, and understand that you need physical evidence of government intent or solid evidence of intent using archives to prove a genocide. You cannot simply accuse an empire of genocide without sufficient evidence.
I added two quotes about the Hitler Quote to the top, read them and understand that talking about the Armenian-referencing Hitler Quote, is false and will only ruin your credibility.
Why Armenians refuse to listen when one not agree with them?
there was no Armenian genocide , but there was a civil war, which Armenians started when they sided with Russia. just because you lost the civil war, don't call it a holocaust. remember there are many Turkish civilians killed by Armenian gangs. there are documents and eyewitness accounts.
When the alleged genocide happened, there were many Armenian officials, bureaucrats in the Ottoman government. They were alive and were still serving in the government, why Ottoman gov't did not kill them, if there was a genocide.
I refer to the "do u really think all of those victims randomly thought up their terrible stories of death marches? do u really think all those people randomly died at the same year in history? do u rally that the New York Times and other major US papers made up the articles that were printed about the killings in the Ottoman Empire?"
God gave us eyes, ears and brain. However people like you resist to realize what has happened. It is typical reaction from brainwashed people because of the propaganda took about 90 years.
READ IT. LEARN IT. IT WAS VERY WELL PRESENTED IN HERE.
It is not a matter of believing. History does not change whether you believe it or not. It is a matter of reading, learning, evaluating the available documents. All of the answers to your questions were already presented in here.
Most of the Armenians knew Turkish and could easily blend in if they wanted. Only cities of known Armenian populations were relocated to Syria in order to stop the rebellion and ethnic war that was rampant in the region. The Armenians had their own schools, churches, and lived alongside many Turkish, Greek, Kurdish, Jewish, and Azerbaijani communities.
If the suffering of Armenians was directed by the Turkish government with the motive of ethnic superiority, then the Kurds, Greeks, and Azerbaijanis would also be subjected to the Relocation laws (Tehcir law) just like the Armenians. If there was a religious motivation, then the Jews would be relocated as well. However, only the Armenians were relocated, not even the Christian Nestorians (Assyrians) were relocated. It seems more plausible that Armenians were relocated in order to hastily disrupt the Armenian rebellions that were damaging the Ottoman war effort during World War I.,,,,:~
This whole paragraph is wholy to mostly incorrect. One thing I know is incorrect is about the Assyrians (Assoary in Armenian, Assurians Biblical). The 1.5 million Assyrians who died also suffered in very similar ways just as the 1.7 million Armenians 1.2 million Greeks and the millions of Bulgarians Jews and other smaller minorites like Lazes and Arabs in the Ottoman Empire (keep in mind Armenia had it's own lands and was still called the Modern Kingdom of Armenia then). If it wasn't a Genocide of all these races espeically the larger majority minorities like the Armenians 4-5 million Greeks about 3 million and Assyrians also 2-3 million then why did so many of them die????? How could it have possibly been a deportation or "relocation" in effort to dismantle the war effort and why where teh Armenians rebelling if they where,,,they where ONLY becuase they where trying to reclaim their stolen lands from muslims and the Ottoman Empire and establish their Armenia, which in fact already there,,,but the Ottoman army started killing and attacking them first beggining with the Adana massacre where over 9000 Armenians where slaughtered just because a bank in Istanbul A BANK was disrupted by a group of Armenians announcing their reqwuest of same rights and equal privelidges which they DID NOT HAVE alongside Assyrians and other minorities especially teh Christian ones. So the Ottoman government being so boisterous and "angry"?? really,, sent their army to kill Armenian men women and CHILDREN just becuase it sounded offensive"??,,wow that must mean alot about the Ottoman goverment back then ,,while Armenians made up over 15% of teh Ottoman Empires population and had the largest profit to teh Empire a little bank robery would cause the government to avenge WHAT?? some stolen money and broken glass of doors??,,and to back lash the Armenians by killing children??,,and adults alike..that sounds like a horrible government and a horrible Empire and THAT'S exactly what it was and Turkey TODAY is just about the same today,,,I'll say it again and again till Jesus comes back,,,Turkey must break and fall apart and be givent to the rightfull owners of the lands!,,,Those who deny the genocide need to stop lieing out their obese tongues and start reviving the history of what happened in themselves. I don't blame the Turks as i used to I blame those responsible for carrying out their plans and sending innocent and for the lack of a better word dumbed out and white washed Turks and Kurds and even Armenians against the Armenian Assyrian Greek Laz Kurdish Jewish Bulgarian(2.5 million since 1700's) and other less numerous races to their death. Also I commend esepically you dear Jewish people to look into this because over 70000 Jews where killed by free masked hidden free masonry and illuminaty right in the Ottoman Empire even in Armenians lands, and even with their protection where unable to throw back teh onslaught (these same SECRET SOCIETIES CAUSED THE JEWISH GENOCIDE OF WW2!...). We will say it once and say it again you teh illuminaty, and teh free masonry are responsible for these genocides and you have a lot to do to owe to the Armenians and the other races who suffered even the least their people and THEIR lands returned and their properrty returned back. We will not give up Pirje Assyria Piickar Piickar Hayastan mer Getdinere` bervi mer Getdinere` het bervi, Piickar piickar Hayastan Piickar piickar Hunastan Piickar piickar Assoria! We lost the last time we WILL NOT LOSE AGAINT AND THE GOD SO HELP US!!...
Yes it is true that under the United Nations Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide the situation in Armenia cannot be called a genocide. It is worth noting however that the criteria of CPPCG was written in direct reference to the Holocaust and thus would not recognize the change in tactics employed in Genocide. One of the key signs that a genocide has taken place is the offending countries denial of it. Had there really been a civil war in Turkey more information would have surfaced supporting this theory. Just because the Armenian genocide was not recognized under the limited and general criteria of the CPPCG it does not mean that it did not happen. The Rwandan Genocide of 1994 if viewed using the same criteria would also state that no genocide existed. yet it is widely accepted that this did occur. it is useless to argue that a genocide did not happen because of the criteria under the Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide as it is now outdated.
So there's no documentation. Give me a break. Ever hear of coded telegrams? Genocide - the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. Armenians - Racial, cultural. Death marches, torturing, disarming... Deliberate. IT WAS ORDERED BY THE THREE LITTLE ASSHOLES, AND TURKEY AND YOU AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT! It WAS a genocide! Turkey has to have an article like 301 (banning insult to their identity) because they are such garbage. Admit it you jerks! Oh, come to my house and shoot me - please you power freaks! Get over yourself. We admit to slavery, murdering native americans, and all of the other mistakes we've made toward people. To all of the people that don't have sympathy for Armenians, we have to hear our grandparents stories (if they can talk about it) and it makes us sick, if you can't have sympathy for people that have suffered this, you better go to church. How dare you sit here and argue... Unless you're Turkish and worried about being shot or whatever, BUTT OUT!
to Jonathon Wilson; just think of this, if me and my friends do organize to kill your family members in some times and we get use our connections to get out of it free and on top of that use our friendship with city police deputy (who is one of us)and then get your people deed but not you…! And then put you in justice chare as murder…, you begin to survive some how to get prove of this unfair judgment against you which cause you to get of your home stay away from your own town/city and deport you as murder of your neighbors and own family…, what would you do if you know the through is on your side because you was innocent…? Would you try to prove it or revenge from those who killed your future ? or ron for facts and find evidence to prove something what is already proven like your other neighbors was witness and they hold evidences to help you out and also the son of the police deputy have some documents from his ex-father, NOW say yourself what in realty will you do…? You go to the same court where they put you in this life or… ???
let me add some more testy spice in to this for you, let say those who did the genocide are now the owners of most business and factories and take over all your properties with all gold’s you had, also they create some laws and ruling the town/city as no one have right to use a word of genocide because they own the copy right, unless it is proven buy their own law in that town/city , look you have the witness, evidence and documents as it was ordered and signed by authorities at that time and you yourself is alive…, but all of sodden the court says it was in past and those are not in charge and also not alive so we can’t accept your case it is too old and evidences and documents are not clear… go and get more facts which are acceptable and clear like who was the killer and what was their names address, who was their fathers and why they should do such thing to your family …!!!
Now sit back and think what would you do after all…feel it, is it taste good…?
On top of that, let see those who killed your family, create a war within neighboring cities and claimed they own town on the part of your properties and they do claim that, the other city owners killed their families and friends and that is called genocide (but you know, their families are alive and living in your property and abusing it), so you can even talk now, right…!
I believe you have no guts to imagine thing like these to your own family and find yourself away … because all you know is in your books not in reality, also you know it there was no 6m Jews killed, they all are living in Turkey, Russia, Israel and US, all of them change their names even Hitler brother did and he said they born in Jewish family…
So, how fare your people like to lie themselves and live out of Human realty , all because Jews or Sumerians had no chance to build their own country and history “Well the Babylonians and Parthenians seen the way Sumerians going is against of Humanity and Nature at that time and try to stop it but Sumerians didn’t accept it as an offer and begin the war in night… as it happens every time in middle east within Israel and Palestinians it is same thing it is Human history and challenge which is acceptable from all strong nations , but one thing is never been accepted and will not on this Glory of Light life and that is anti- Humanity Action and it will be paid back… as its the mother nature request.
God Bless Man and Araman
This website is obviously the work of a talmudist pro-Zionist who believes that 6 million jews were systematically murdered by the nazis. Your arguments are unconvincing because they are extremely in favor of the group that was behind the young turk revolution, crypto jews of the donmeh. Now you can continue to spew your pro-Jewish ideas but the true truth seekers know that the Jews (ADL, etc.) are the leading group who continually deny the Armenian genocide. Nice try, go write a story about the phony holocaust and make the jews proud.
Jonathan Wilson's account of the Armenian tragedy is spot on. As a second generation Turkish Cypriot living in the UK, i have met Armenians who originated from Turkey. My parents even worked for them and they have not once talked about Gencocide but have mentioned the deportations. Where are the mass graves? There simply isn't any. In war, one can expect all sorts of nasty things to happen, as was the case in Turkey and even Cyprus, but the Armenian's do not have a case.
'CASE CLOSED'
By the way, i am by no means a nationalist, just a realist. Note: i am even married to a Greek Cypriot.
Shame on you Jonathan Wilson.
Yourself being a Jewish Author, how can you write against another Genocide, the first one of the century.
What will you do now that the relationship between Israel and Turkey is turning sour and that Israel and the USA are on the verge of recognizing teh Armenian Genocide. I'd like to see your face then!
Sowing lies and false propaganda will get you nowhere! The truth will come out and you'll feel small.
Why don't you answer these questions!
If there was no Genocide, how come there are no Armenian living in Eastern Anatolia today, the historical lands of the proud Armenian people.
How come Turks removed Armenian writings from hundreds of church facades, turned ancient Armenian churches into stables, or used their stones as building materials. A nation that's shameful of it's act would not go to such lengths. Indeed, committing a genocide is despicably evil and shameful.
Let me see you answer these questions.
How come so many great nations have recognized the Armenian Genocide - France, Greece, Canada and countless others. Are they also liars?
How come ambassador Morgenthau wrote about the massacres of innocent Armenians?
How come the New York times has so many articles about the killings of the innocent Armenians?
Answer these questions without lying if you can.
Have the courage to post my letter with your answers.
How come you publish mainly non-Armenian responses?
@ara sarafian
I am not Jewish, but yes I do believe in the Holocaust strongly. You can't just claim a genocide and then expect victims of real proven genocides to automatically believe you and help you convince others.
If I accept your genocide without proof, then anyone can claim genocide if some civilians died in a war. The death of civilians within a war should not be automatically labeled genocide without a real systematic attempt by a group to eliminate them from this world.
Considering the fact that Armenians in Eastern Turkey were not harmed, it proves that there was no planned genocide by the Ottoman government.
Neither the US nor Israel will ever recognize the Armenian Genocide, because there is no evidence for such a genocide and governments are not historians and cannot judge history!
You claim something and then when someone asks you where the evidence is, you call them a liar or denier. This is unjust.
So, if I sue you for injuring me in an alleged accident, and as evidence I show you my injured arm, is the judge and jury going to believe me and award me thousands of dollars without even finding out your side of the story? In history, just like in a court room, we find out both sides of a story.
@ara sarafian, to answer your many QUESTIONS:
- Armenians do live in Eastern Anatolia today. In fact, there are 70,000 illegal immigrants from Armenia living in Turkey! Why live in a place that is supposedly hostile?
- Armenians have more churches in Turkey than in Armenia! How's that for religious freedom?
- The Turkish government used tax money to repair an Armenian church in the island in the Van lake in Eastern Turkey. Why do that if they hated the Armenians?
- You have no proof of Armenian churches being damaged purposefully. There are many Armenian churches in Turkey that are not damaged.
- Recognition of Armenian Genocide by governments is simply a result of good political campaigning by Armenians living in France, Canada, Greece. This doesn't mean those who vote for recognition are historians and it doesn't prove genocide just because some countries recognized it; maybe they did it because they want to pressure the Turkish government to do something.
- Ambassador Morgenthau was trying to convince the American public and the government to support the Allies in World War I. What better way than to publish a book (ghost-written by Armenians) painting Ottomans (Central Powers) as villains? Britain did the same with Germany in WWI. And Germany did the same with Russia in WWI. It's called propaganda by the government.
- The New York Times has articles on massacres. And if you look, the New York Times has articles of Armenians massacring Turks too. Go look in our Image gallery!
- I publish tons of Armenian responses, just like yours. But some of them are very insulting and childish. Some are death threats.
To ara sarafian:
You said that how come there are no Armenians living in Eastern Anatolia unless a genocide did happen..Now let me ask u one question: How come there are no Germans living in Poland(especially Western Poland did I mean) after ww II? If you cannot answer it thru your damaged brain let me answer it: They were forced to immigrate to Germany,as did it happen to Armenians-they were forced to march to Syria most of which ,also, survived during ww I.That does not mean a genocide did occur.
Also you said this: How come you publish mainly non-Armenian responses?
Answer:Is everyone obliged to publish only Armenian propaganda materials? Isn't it fascistical idea-to ban materials published by the Turks?Don't people have the right to see the opposite ideas as well?
Just try answering these questions,but...if you cannot both of us would get sure that even none of us would be believing in this so-called Armenian Genocide stuff . . .
I publish all comments even by Armenians, unless it's filled with hatred, death threats, or silly arguments like "you are on payroll of Turkish government" and that sort of ridiculous vicious attacks without any real logical argumentation.
I just had a quick question, why do you care about this topic so much? It doesn't really seem like you're neither Armenian nor Turkish, though I could be wrong. And you said you're not Jewish, either. I'm just curious why you've dedicated an entire website to deny genocide when it doesn't really affect you.
I'm working on a paper for my western civilization 2 class, that is comparing the Jewish holocaust and the unfortunate events that happened to the Armenians. In doing research for the paper I've come across information that says over one million Armenians were killed as a result of them being forcibly relocated to labor camps where they were denied food and water, as well in several cases just flat out killed.
My question to you is how are you justifying these actions that the Turks did from the time of 1915 to 1916. They removed them from their homes, starved them, put them in harsh environments causing many to die of disease, then deliberately killed thousands. We see the same thing happening in Rwanda's genocide, Eastern Timor, and the Sudanese genocide. How is it any different if the people were killed by gas chamber, bullets or machete?
Why is it that all the people stating there was a genocide have no citations or any sources of evidence, and most everyone who stated there was no genocide has evidence supporting their claims?
@anonymous
I care about all history. I write to many websites that deal with history on various different subjects. This happens to be one my areas of expertise because of my research in various European and US archives. I found that a lot of people believe that this was a black-and-white case of genocide, and I think people should be informed that it's simply not that simple and that there is no evidence of genocide.
I write articles for this site, because I believe the deception of Armenian historians who are trying to convince the world that the Turks are equivalent to Nazis is simply a wicked goal that tarnishes the reputation of all historians.
Many historians feel the same. This is what motivates Dr. Justin McCarthy (not Jewish, not Armenian, not Turkish), Dr. Bernard Lewis, Dr. Guenter Lewy and many other historians who are world-renowned for their expertise on Ottoman, Balkan, and Armenian history.
Historians do feel that when deception is being used to distort history, someone has to speak up for the truth.
@Jake,
Why do you believe such information? A huge percentage of the Armenian population survived, lived full lives in Syria after the relocations (a death march that leaves survivors? Unheard of). Many even boarded Allied ships and started new lives in France, Russia, Italy, and the United States. Is it any wonder that the largest populations of Armenians today happens to be in Russia, France, and the United States? If they were mostly killed off, did they multiply faster than all the other ethnic groups in the world?
There were indeed Armenians who were killed and Armenians who died from starvation, disease, poverty, and exhaustion. However, there were just as many Turks that died in similar circumstances. That shows there was no orchestrated genocide, simply the standard horrors of all wars, especially a world war where medicine and food were scarce. A lot of the Armenians also joined ARF and other revolutionary groups, to fight for the Allies--of course many died.
When the Ottoman army itself is going into battle starving and with disease---is it any surprise that Armenians too would die?
The Ottoman government did remove Armenians from their homes and relocated them to Syria, where they gave them new homes and tools to recreate their businesses. Indeed, some died during the journey due to unfortunate forms of transportation of the 1900s. However, this was the standard way all European nations dealt with rebellion, it doesn't equate to genocide, let alone the Holocaust.
Rwanda, Eastern Timor, and Sudanese genocide are all different stories. In those stories there were real perpetrators trying to exterminate an ethnicity. In Eastern Turkey, you could barely tell the difference between a Turk and an Armenian until you waited to see if they head to mosque or church (many of them spoke Turkish and looked Turkish and vice-versa).
Explain then why John Lempkin coined the term genocide for the plight that befell the Armenians...
@Odar, it was Raphael Lemkin, not John Lempkin.
Raphael Lemkin was a lawyer, he was not a historian. From the little amount of news sources and rumors running around at the time, he had the opinion that the Ottomans were massacring the Armenians. He had never been to Turkey. He had never seen any massacres or war zones in his life.
Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide, being influenced by World War II suffering of the Jews, Armenian massacres, and the Simele Massacre in Iraq. Nothing suggests that the Armenian suffering was the single source of influence or that he even studied the history of the event much at all.
To top it off, the term genocide became a legal term used by the United Nations, and even if Raphael applied it to Armenian suffering, it has no legal basis to be used as a way to label the Ottoman Empire because the definition is clear and the word is a legal term.
What happened to the Ottoman Armenians cannot be described as genocide because of the lack of evidence that it was a genocide. In addition, there is plenty of contradictory facts that completely falsify any thesis of genocide.
Dear Jonathan Wilson,
Please allow me to tell you some facts that you failed to mention in your amazing but falsified site.
Azerbaijan is a Turk race (that is why Turks were fighting in the west against Russians to unify the great Turkic nation)
Kurds were Turks allies back then (Turks promised them a land on their own but later on failed to do so.
Greeks, Assyrians, Bulgarians as well as Armenians were a subject of extermination.
Dr. Bernard Lewis is a Jew. He first acknowledged the events of 1915 as Armenian genocide but later changed his views for political gains.
Dr. Guenter Lewy again a Jew from Germany believes that the Shoah is the only unique genocide occurred in the 20th century excluding the Romans, homosexuals, gypsies and all the other races that suffered in WWII.
Dr. Justin McCarthy an American historian who studied in Turkey, has an honorary doctorate from there, and is a board member of the institute Turkish studies.
Moreover, there is another historian that denies the Armenian genocide ever occurred because simply his wife is a Turk that my memory fails to remember his name.
By the way, there are many historians’ questions the Shoah. Iran is not the only country that denies the Holocaust (do your own research and let us talk again). Please don’t tell me that the Shoah is recognized world wide without any debate or doubts (I can give you a list that in no way, you’ll find an Iranian, Arabic, or German name)
Now if you really want to talk whether the Armenian genocide occurred or not. Please make a research that doesn't deal with Armenians or Turkish nationalists in any way because all your research are affiliated someway from an Armenian academic view (believes that there is an Armenian genocide), Jew perspective which believes that the only religion got exterminated, or the Turkish nationalist which ironically they ... you know the rest.
Try for example like the international association of genocide scholars, Samantha Power the renowned activist, Orham pamuk the Turkish novelist, Taner akcam the Turkish historian. Those are, only few names of many hundreds that are in no way exposed to the Armenian lobby nor has anything to do with Armenians and recognizes the events of 1915 as Armenian genocide. Those are in our modern world
Let me tell you some names from history that saw and talked about those atrocities.
The American Ambassador Henry Mongerthau and his book Henry Mongerthau’s stroy, The American president Woodrow Wilson, Armin Wegner a German soldier that most of the pictures you doubt the sources are from his camera. (If you care, I would provide you with the whole list).
If you think scholars, academics, historical documents or witnesses aren’t enough for you.
Let me give you other facts of the 1915 events.
Four thousand documents that recognizes the Armenian genocide are in the American congress library,
The blue book of UK characterizes the 1915 events as Armenian genocide
(If you care, I would provide you with the whole list with proofs).
Many other nations that recognizes the Armenian genocide and has no significance of an Armenian lobby
Like Italy, Switzerland, Sweden, Chile, Belgium, Germany (which has the biggest Turkish population outside of turkey), Netherlands, Lithuania, Slovakia, Poland and the general assembly of the EU characterize the events of 1915 as genocide. There are other nations like Russia, France, and 42 American states recognizes the Armenian Genocide but I don't want to mention those because you think it’s a act of pressure from the Armenian lobby.(I can provide you with the full list)
And if you gonna play the Historian card I will simply tell you that the Shoah is recognized by nations and historians so the same is applicable for the Armenian, Rwandan, Cambodian, Darfouri to be characterized as genocide by historians and nations.
Concerning talat pasha and his diaries
Armenian is an ethnicity, while Judaism is a religion so making a comparison between them is very wrong.
By the way, they were many Jews fought against the Nazi regime from the American troops, soviet troops and even French. Those weren’t labeled with the David’s star and fought and still Jews were exterminated. So wouldn't be logical that the same thing happened in 1915?
So saying that the Jews didn't have arms back in WWII makes no sense because they did and fought against the Nazi regime inside of the Nazi Germany.
If Adolf Hitler made Armenians as an Aryan race in his list does not mean Armenians weren’t a subject of extermination. True there was an Armenian battalion that served the SS Nazi but only because those Armenians wanted to break from the USSR. Azerbaijanis did that as well, and many other ex-soviet nations. Again I don’t see your point about this issue.
Now you mentioned there are more churches in turkey than Armenia maybe you are right but I want to tell you something that recently happened. Yes, the Turkish government renewed the church in Achtamar while refusing putting a cross on its peak and having Muslim prayers every Friday. Or even having a fashion shoot, Wow that is new level of religious respect.
Yes, there are Armenians in Istanbul and yes, there are people who endorse Judaism in Germany so I do not see your argument about that. Are you going to tell me that Germany recognizes the Shoah? Would this be your argument?
A question though so the UN laws or documents for the prevention of genocide which is based on Raphael Lemkins presentation to the league of nations and criminal law is doubtful right? Because you said, he characterized the Armenian tragedy as genocide based on rumors. This is what you said so I will definitely say that the Shoah is doubtful then because Raphael Lemkin coined the word Jewish Shoah on rumors. My word against yours.
You mentioned that only historians are allowed to say whether it is genocide or not. Therefore, your site is not credible because simply you are not a historian.
and please next time, when you want to make a judgement on an issue make sure you have all sides covered.
Yours,
Sevag Der Sarkissian